C6th temperment

[Jack Kilbride]

Johnny Shadid has a great sheet that shows you how to use harmonics to tune your steel. Obviously, the benefits of how your chords sound in something closer to just intonation are super nice, and I think I have the process down pretty okay! But I was wondering if someone had a similar process/order of operations when tuning the c6th by harmonics? I see very little discussing of C6th PSG temperaments, so I was wondering if any of you had some tips! Thanks.

[Bob Hoffnar]

You might look into how Jerry Byrd tuned. Also I remember Charleton tuning by ear using his E string on the E9 neck as a starting point. I've seen a few players from a while back that did what Charleton did but I could never figure out how to make it work. The Jerry Byrd thing is deep and worth spending time on.

[Ben Audette]

Jack, where can I find the sheet you are referring to?

[Dale Rottacker]

Gonna follow ... I'm not a long time C6th player, but thought that every sweetened tuning sounded awful, and straight up to my ear sounds pretty sweet.

[Ian Rae]

I totally agree with Dale.
On my uni I tune the E9 changes to natural intervals but that doesn't work on B6. For those close harmonies it has to be straight up, or the augmented and diminished chords don't sound right at all.

[Thornton Lewis]

I also have a uni and play a lot of closed voice 7th chords, often involving three or more pedals/ levers.
Straight up and damn the torpedoes, though there are "possible" voicings that just sound so bad you wouldn't use them even in passing.

[Brian Lee]

Forum founder bOb wrote an interesting article on C6 tuning temperament that can be found by clicking the “steel guitar links” link that is located at the top right of the header on this SGF site page. I can’t vouch for it personally as I haven’t gotten very far on C6 yet , but it’s a good read and sounds like a viable approach.

[Ian Rae]

Thanks, Brian, I'd forgotten all about that and I shall give it a try.

[J D Sauser]

I came from JI (on E9th and then E9th-Uni) and being a fervent defender of that tuning method and went almost 180 degrees to pretty much "straight up" (meaning ET or as some call it "440"... the later being a misleading misnomer) for C6th almost 2 Decades later:

I started out of A6th non-pedal as a Teen in the 1980's.
I had ZERO theoretical knowledge and tuned ET to a tuner. I always felt it sounded "out of tune". There is a reason for that "feeling"... ET IS out of tune when it comes to several strings ringing together.
The reason is the Major 3rd overtones every tone will generate are about 11 cents below a the EQUAL CALCULATED ("man-made-up") ET notes. So when you have an ET M3rd ringing to a Root which generates a low volume M3rd 11cents below, you get a "rub", "beats".
It's not a steel guitar problem, it's not "our ears"... it's just that physics can be a real b1+c8.

For me, to see the "light", it took the invention of Internet and Youtube to discover JI and the "WHY?".

I believe that I could play IN-tune on a JI E9th with several compensators. I even designed a conditioned pull on my E-to-F raise in conjunction with the A-pedal.

Many greats and even teachers like Maurice Anderson and Jeff Newman played JI or close to JI.

And then,, one sunny day in the late 1990's, his Excellency Sir Buddy Emmons came out (here on the Forum) and shocked the world stating that HE was tuning "straight up" with just ever so slightly adjusting this M3rds.

Even Maurice Anderson shared with me his total disbelief.



I left PSG around that period and when I came back decided to ditch Universal and E9th for a more complete C6th.


My comprehension of music "theoIES" and the physics relative to it, is much more complete now, even though I feel I am only scratching the surface a little deeper:



PEDALED C6th allows for very complex chord structures, with narrow intervals and also upper harmony and even altered degrees everywhere, so much so, that most changes can not only be combined (I have several changes with 2 Pedals and 2 levers engaged), but also used off different roots... so, that it becomes almost impossible to choose a clear single root, 3rd, 5th etc... every note could be either.

Close interval chords, some with half note intervals create 3rds (Mayor or minor) left and right of them over another string too.


Here's a simple example:

P5 & 6... the so called "diminished-pedals"... how would you JI tune a succession of minor 3rds? They each would like to be tuned somewhat sharp to another... stacking these minor 3rds one would end up with octaves about 15 cents sharp. ALL four of them! Besides being unbearably out of tune, it would evidently defy the purpose of JI... being further out of tune than when using ET!



I've given b0b's Meantone Tuning Analysis which was most appropriately suggested above, an extended try.
And it seems to be working until... it doesn't because it pushes the "problem" into "a corner" and then it sums up in an over 20cent discrepancy. b0b acknowledged that and I believe he even describes the phenomenon on his essay.
If you know how to deal with it, it's workable. It was for him. But it wasn't for me for what I was trying to do with a much more complex setup (S12 with 6P & 8K).



All Petty, a preacher who quite adeptly used a D10 with a double row of pedals (!) plus knee lever, came up with something which would seem to reflect what Buddy Emmons MAYBE meant with only "touching up ever so slightly so it would be bearable":

All Petty suggested to have ALL intervals have "SOME" beating, even 4ths & 5ths, just at about the "speed" one could say "whua'whua'whua'whua'whua'whua".


I took that and ran with it. 
I start all to tuner. 
Instead of lowering my E's (M3rds to C) I RAISE my C's about 5cents and I tune everything to have about that "whua'whua'whua"... and I can play the most impossible pedal and lever combinations. 

If I couldn't do that, I would be playing C6th ET.

My son plays piano. Pianos are thought of as being tuned ET. They "kind'a" are. Real pianos, have several strings, and the are slightly "spread" tuned. It makes a "bigger" sound and masks somewhat the most problematic M3rd issue... and there is a M3 left and right of EVERY of the 88 keys. It's bearable. But when you play JI and then hop onto the piano... it's cringe worthy... one needs to get used to it again.
I just finished restoring a 200 Wurlitzer Piano. There is one thine per key. NO "spread" tuning. But there's a fair amount of distortion and vibrato and the thines "wobble" somewhat, which helps overcome the harshest of issues. But one sure can play great complex chords on them in all 12 key centers.

And that's how I see C6th today.

But hey, as I said at the beginning, I've had a different opinion before, and who's to say I won't change it again?!?


... J-D.

[Greg Vincent]

I think of C6 more akin to a piano (ET) and E9 more like a choir or string section (JI).

[Dale Rivard]

I use my own custom method of Meantone tuning on both E9th & C6th. My 3rd's are slightly sharp by ear but slightly flat of straight up. I find it's more fault tolerant and also allows me to play more combinations without using compensators. Also, although the triads are not totally pure sounding, they are more pure then ET. Seems to work for me. I believe this is what Buddy used near the end of his career.

[Andrew Frost]

Interesting thread.

I've found for my purposes the best approach is to tune all chord groupings - on any tuning or neck - to have consistent interval sizes wherever possible.

It ends up being a system half way between pure and equal tempered.

So on both necks, every chord grouping, more or less, has Major 3rds, 6ths and major7ths that are 'parallel' with each other, and they sit about 8 cents below the corresponding Roots 5ths and 9ths of that particular chord grouping.

In other words the Root 3 5 6 7 9 relationships within all the chord groupings in any tuning, have a consistency. Not every chord tone or extension is present in every grouping , but the intervals in each grouping are tempered consistently. The E to G# interval is the same size as A to C# and so on.

For example, If I play E maj7 at fret 2 of E9 with AB and string 9, it will have the same interval relationships as fret 4 of C6 with pedal 7.

There are some exceptions and inconsistencies but I know where they are and do my best to work around them.

As with most things, one has to do what works for them, but I don't understand how people can use different temperaments on different tunings.
For me this would be like trying to speak with two different accents.
Sometimes when recording I will go between necks or layer parts. Having two different temperament systems would make things pretty inconsistent and drive me nuts.

I think Weldon Myrick said 'figure out how to tune your guitar and then play your guitar".
Playing in tune is what matters and knowing your tuning system is probably the first step in doing that.

[J D Sauser]

Interesting thread.

I've found for my purposes the best approach is to tune all chord groupings - on any tuning or neck - to have consistent interval sizes wherever possible.

It ends up being a system half way between pure and equal tempered.

So on both necks, every chord grouping, more or less, has Major 3rds, 6ths and major7ths that are 'parallel' with each other, and they sit about 8 cents below the corresponding Roots 5ths and 9ths of that particular chord grouping.

In other words the Root 3 5 6 7 9 relationships within all the chord groupings in any tuning, have a consistency.

For example, If I play E maj7 at fret 2 of E9 with AB and string 9, it will have the same interval relationships as fret 4 of C6 with pedal 7.

There are some exceptions and inconsistencies but I know where they are and do my best to work around them.

As with most things, one has to do what works for them, but I don't understand how people can use different temperaments on different tunings.
For me this would be like trying to speak with two different accents.
Sometimes when recording I will go between necks or layer parts. Having two different temperament systems would make things pretty inconsistent and drive me nuts.

I think Weldon Myrick said 'figure out how to tune your guitar and then play your guitar".
Playing in tune is what matters and knowing your tuning system is probably the first step in doing that.

I think that IF I were to play E9th again, I would likely go at it differently than I used to... in other words NOT pure JI again, but to use an approach derived from what I use today on C6th. I quit Universal for two reasons... but TUNING issues between the two "words" was the first, and only later did I decide to rather build up my C6th instead of having even only a pair of "A&B" pedals using up hardware.
You said it correctly, one has to PLAY in tune. The closer one gets to JI the more noticeable any "issue" becomes and it distracts from just playing fitting in. After all, guitar players, basses, horns etc are constantly "out of tune" and the only "stable" thing are keyboards or a well tuned piano... which are ET or is close to it and becomes the reference.

... J-D

[Ian Rae]

I have an advantage over J.D. I didn't have to wait for the Internet to discover JI - I found it as a teenager when I started to play trombone, which is an instrument so sonorous that when you take part in three- or four- part chords, any except natural intervals are physically uncomfortable - you actually tune by feel rather than by ear.
I soon discovered that if my allocated note was the root or the fifth, then its position on the slide would be roughly* where you expect; but if it was the third you had to move out considerably.
So I was accustomed to JI for a long time before I played steel, which turned out to be just as sonorous! I tuned the E9 to ET just the once out of curiosity, and instantly wished I hadn't bothered.
A piano kind of gets away with it because of its rapid decay, but ET E9 steel is like having your brains drilled out.
C6? Just fine!

[*there are no fret markers on a trombone, so it's a constant game of guess-and-correct!]

[J D Sauser]

I have an advantage over J.D. I didn't have to wait for the Internet to discover JI - I found it as a teenager when I started to play trombone, which is an instrument so sonorous that when you take part in three- or four- part chords, any except natural intervals are physically uncomfortable - you actually tune by feel rather than by ear.
I soon discovered that if my allocated note was the root or the fifth, then its position on the slide would be roughly* where you expect; but if it was the third you had to move out considerably.
So I was accustomed to JI for a long time before I played steel, which turned out to be just as sonorous! I tuned the E9 to ET just the once out of curiosity, and instantly wished I hadn't bothered.
A piano kind of gets away with it because of its rapid decay, but ET E9 steel is like having your brains drilled out.
C6? Just fine!

[*there are no fret markers on a trombone, so it's a constant game of guess-and-correct!]

"Trombone"...!
About 15 years ago, I got invited to play along with a Big Band... over 20 players.
One of the biggest impressions was to be on stage and hearing a horn section blow chords and hearing them... morphing from chord to chord seamlessly like a PSG... and bringing it all in perfect tune... to the point you feel the whole band "hovers in the air". It's then that I understood why they all use sheet music, because none of them is free to just "blow stuff" and instead each is ONE degree of a chord. And as they each tune by ear... the ear hears rubs vs. "clean" intervals.

When I knew NONE about all that ET, JT, my ears felt my steel was out of tune. I thought I was out of tune. Now that I tune close to ET again, I had to learn to play IN tune with an ET-tuning... but that's just like learning to find a golden-medium playing JT against a somewhat ET environment.
Bottom line, for ME, with my somewhat exaggerated complex setup (S12 C6th with 6P & 8KL), tuning wise, it's boiled down to be able to make all possible pedal/lever combinations work. In JT that would be impossible or limited.

The WurliTzer Electric Piano again. Unlike the Rhodes, I find them to sound rather ugly ALONE. The got very short tines and only one per note. It's so hard core ET. ALL Major 3rd intervals have the same ugly rub. I find it only bearable with some a bit of overdrive warmth alone.
BUT, when played against a piano, organ or guitar... they blend in like butter and all of a sudden even sound "pretty creamy".
I feel that C6th in JAZZ (I mean out of Western Swing which requires that wide twangy wood'n'cast aluming sound) sounds really good when it sounds somewhat similar to a Rhodes piano.

... J-D.

[Michael Haselman]

Ahh, this subject always seems to open a can of worms I've been using the sweetened tuning that came with my StroboStomp tuner for C6 and it works pretty well for me.