1967 MSA pedal / lever configuration questions

[Nolan Gordin]

Hello all!

First time poster here and pedal steel newbie. I just picked up my first PSG on Reverb recently and I had some questions on how to configure / tune it up properly. I made a video that covers my questions in a bit more detail which can be found here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q4q3rtCWmY

In summary, my three questions are:

1. Can I configure this guitar to be a 3 x 4 as it was marketed?
2. Can I add a LKL lever to this guitar? It looks like it is configured to accept a LKV
3. Does it make sense to have the following configuration for the levers:
-RKR: E > F
-RKL: E > Eb
-LKL: G# > G
-LKR (If possible): F# > G# (open for suggestions here!)

Thanks a ton for your insight!

[Bob Carlucci]

Might want to rethink the model year.. MSA Classic and Semi Classic guitars with the distinctive heavy duty all pull changer system we all know and love were not around in the 60's... The 60's MSA guitars had a much different pull system, nothing like the pull system MSA started using in the early 70's. The earliest MSA Semi Classic I am aware of was made in 1972.. Your guitar is much later than 67... bob

[Bob Carlucci]

Looks like a standard MSA Classic undercarriage, so there should be NO problem adding 2 knee levers at all... I have had several MSA S10's over the years with 5 and 4.. Plenty of room, parts readily available, and they are easy to work on... bob

[Nolan Gordin]

Hey Bob,

Thanks for the replies! That's good to know about the year being incorrect on my instrument, I thought the condition was too good to be from the 60's. I think I am realizing that there was some incorrect information on the listing. I've reached out to MSA to find out more about the year based on the serial.

In regards to adding more knee levers, maybe this is just my lack of understanding on the mechanics, but how can you add more than 6 pedals / levers if there are only 6 cross rods? Would the knee lever have to be connected to the same cross rod as one of the pedals? I would assume that the knee lever would end up having the functionality as the pedal in that case.

Thank you for all the information!

[Bob Carlucci]

ok, after having a look at your undercarriage, it seems MSA did NOT leave the extra holes in the aluminum frame that are standard in all S10 and D10 MSA Classic guitars,,, I thought the semi classic frame would be set up the same but they are not.. Not that big a deal really.. You would need 2 complete knee lever kits for the left knee.. That would include the levers, bellcranks, cross shafts, stops, pull rods etc etc.. You would have to mount the cross shaft stanchions into the wood body as the semi classic frame is not drilled for the cross shafts.. Here's what I would do.. i would contact Mike Yahl at psg parts, and show him some undercarriage pics, and explain what you want to do... He can set you up.. also Jim Palenscar at Steel Guitars North County is a very helpful guy and probably has or can get, or can make anything you need.. There may be a better way to mount levers in a semi classic that I am unaware of, and Jim is the guy that would know... MSA made a guitar called the Classic SS that had the levers and cross shafts mounted into the wood body[no aluminum frame in that model], so mounting the 2 extra levers into wood is no big deal. You are probably looking at $200 or better for each lever , thats if you do it yourself, but I would talk to the guys mentioned to be certain.. Jim would do a great job installing them if you decide to go that route... Its not hard, but might be a bit much for a brand new player to want to get into... In any case, good luck and keep us informed about what you decide... bob

[Nolan Gordin]

Hey again Bob,

Thanks again for the follow up, I really appreciate your guidance as I am getting going!

Ok that's what I was expecting. The cross shaft stanchion was the part that I was picturing in my head, but wasn't sure what to search for. I would love to eventually have a 3 X 4 setup, but I think for the time being, I will end up mounting the LKV lever in the pre-drilled spot since I already have the parts for that. From there, I will move the G# > G lever there and then add the E > F lever (which I don't currently have) to the RKR lever. I think from there (in addition to new strings and a good cleaning and oiling), that should give me more than enough to get started and playing. Later on down the road, I will check in with Mike and Jim for some further guidance and parts for adding those additional knee levers, I really appreciate you providing those connections!

I'll be sure to follow up with questions or updates to the LKV install as I get around to that. If there are any other thoughts or feedback you or anyone else can provide to a beginner pedal steel player, I'd be all ears! Thank you again!!

[Bob Carlucci]

MSA parts are still around, readily available mainly because there are still so many out there, and they are extremely rugged, and will last probably forever. I Imagine that holes can be drilled into the aluminum frame on your guitar using an existing MSA frame section as a template, but that would be more trouble than its worth... I would just use standard MSA thickness cross shafts [5/16?] with stancions that mount into the wood underbody.. Whoever you buy them from may cut them down a bit as a standard S10 MSA width shaft is designed to go into the frame on either side, supported by Delrin bushings inserted into the frame.. Your guitar would need them 2 inches or so shorter.. In any case talk to the Mike Y or Jim P when you're ready to expand.. They'll get you set up fast... bob

[David Wright]

What is the serial # I can date it for you, it's not a 67

[Nolan Gordin]

Thanks David!

I emailed MSA, but haven’t heard back yet. The serial is 1S541. Very curious to learn more about it. I’m also curious to know what the original pedal / lever combination would have been on this guitar.

[David Wright]

June 4, 1973....It was shipped with 3&2....Pedals were Reg abc Emmons The knee levers were rase and lower Es It was shipped to CMI in Chicago, A distributed to a music store... I don't have that info... David....

[Nolan Gordin]

Wow that’s great to learn, thank you David! I’m going to go through the process to restore it to the original knee lever configuration and then add a LKV to lower the G#s to a G. I think that should be plenty to get me off and running until I’m ready to upgrade to another knee. Is there a general functionality that lots of people use for the 4th knee lever? Or is that mostly unique to the player? Thanks again for all the insight!

[Donny Hinson]

Sounds like you've never played before, you just got the thing, but you want to go adding and modifying it already? My advice would be to set it up so you have the two levers raising and lowering the E notes (strings 4 & and learn a little about playing first! There's a LOT of technique to learn, so take it slow. After a year or so to get the basics down, then you can worry about adding and modifying.

While the guitar was really designed to be 4+2, anything can be done with a little ingenuity.
Also, I'd have the RKR lowering the E's, and the RKL raising them, as it makes more ergonomic sense.

[Nolan Gordin]

Thanks Danny,
That’s great feedback. I’m coming from a lapsteel background with two benders, so I have a little understanding about the pedal steel, but you’re totally right, it’s a brand new instrument to me. I definitely have a lot of learning to do! The instrument is currently set up to accept a LKV, it just needs the lever to be screwed into some preexisting holes, so that should be easy enough to add. I figure while I’m restringing, tuning, cleaning and oiling, I might as well get everything in tip top shape. I’ve been watching some videos, but I’ll likely need to pick up a book to practice some exercises. If anyone has any recommendations for learning material (videos or books) I’d love to get some suggestions. Thanks again all!

[Bob Carlucci]

"Also, I'd have the RKR lowering the E's, and the RKL raising them, as it makes more ergonomic sense."

Thats the way it would have come when it was new..
I agree with Donny,.. probably 95 % of all E9 playing is done with the 3 pedals and the 1/2 tone 4 and 8 string up and down changes.. Your other basic changes for levers would be 1st and 7 string raise up a half or full tone, or 1 string full tone raise combined with 2nd string half tone raise. Your LKV lever is used by many players to lower both B strings a half tone. when you add a 4th lever[non vertical], it should be the second string lower in two steps.. This change should probably be added next, before any first string pulls are added. Its a basic change.

Here is what I would do-

1- set your right knees up with the e changes.

2-When you are ready to add a 3rd lever,, add the second string 2 step lower. I have it on LKR.

3-Then the 4th lever you can do what you want, but as stated, I would go with the string 1 full tone /second string half tone raise combination.. Its very common these days and very useful.. I have it on LKL.

4-I would worry about the vertical lever last, and use it as a B string lower...bob

[Nolan Gordin]

Thanks Bob, that really helps point me in the right direction. Really cool to hear from everyone! I think that’s a great first place to start, I’m going to get the right knee levers to raise and lower the Es and then work with that for a while. I’ll see about getting the left knee levers going from there. Looking forward to getting a hang of this thing over the next handful of months! Thanks again all!

[Bobby D. Jones]

To get into playing the guitar. Clean and lube the guitar. I would suggest as Bob did. RKR lower E's, RKL raise E's. VKL lower 5th string to Bb-A#.
To clean and check the cross shafts. Look at the back apron, (part facing you sitting at guitar.) There will be 6 screws to take out, And the cover plate can be removed. This exposes the ends of the cross shafts. This will allow to check the plastic bushings and clean them.

There is a lot of music in A-B-C pedals and D KL lower E's, F KL raise E's. Watch some videos of Mr. Lloyd Green. Bar slants are free to use.

The body will have to be precision drilled to fit the 2 LKL.
Good Luck getting the guitar set up, Happy Steelin.

[Nolan Gordin]

Thanks Bobby! That's great to hear. Just out of curiosity, how would you use the B > A# functionality? I would imagine that would be useful for diminished chords, but without the ability to drop the G# > G, I am uncertain how I would use that lever. My current RKR is set up to drop the G# > G, which I am finding useful for playing open E minor chords without the bar. Thanks for the tips!

[Bobby D. Jones]

Tying a knee lever for a minor, May not be productive.
On the E9th neck, With 3P. 2 KL to raise and lower E's. There is 3 ways to get an Em in 12 frets. Bar at 3rd fret G, A pedal Em. Bar at 8th fret, C chord, Lower E's Em. Bar at 10th fret D. A&B pedals G. Move foot over engage B&C pedals Em.

Already there with the bar. Just use A pedal, knee lever, Or B&C pedal. Is quick and easy.
And gives you 3 different voicings of Em.

This combination of A pedal, lower E's, And B&C pedal. Follows the bar down the neck. chord to chord for dominate minor.
Edit. A thing that is missing, Without the lowering E's, Is with the E lowers and B pedal is one of the combinations to get a 7th chord.
Good luck on your steel journey, Happy Steelin.

[Nolan Gordin]

Thanks again, ok that makes sense, just give you more options for different voicing. I see how there would be more value in having that additional lever that does something more chromatic to give more options. I can’t want to get this thing singing again!

[Lane Gray]

My advice to all new players with a semi-normal setup, regardless of what it is, is Play it for a year as it is.
Don't make any copedent changes until you know what you're wanting to do and why.

[Michael Douglas]

I have a 12 string Dekley , can anybody tell me how to set up 4 kneelers and 5 pedals and the tuning. I'm new to c6 pedal steel. thank you

[Chris Brooks]

Michael, first of all, I would start a new thread with this topic. One topic per thread is customary.

Take photos of the undercarriage and post them. This will help folks responding to your question.

Also, make a diagram of the copedent and post it. Reading a diagram is easier than reading running text about your pedals, levers, and their changes.

Finally: are you sure your Dekley 12 string is in C 6 tuning? My assumption would be that it is in Extended E9.

Chris